remove from mailing list

Erik Jacobs jacobs at kansas.net
Mon Feb 17 16:08:01 EST 2003


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 Leslie:
 I can say from experience that the members of this listserv are extremely
polite to dissenters. There is no need to apologize for expressing the
thoughts generated from your terminstic screen. As to Jonathon's concern
about the discussion being one-sided, well, what did he expect from a
Kenneth Burke listserv? If memory serves me right, Burke thought that Norman
O. Brown was a little too far to the right, for goodness sake.

 As to your recent collective observations about the impact of the
"protests" and other matters regarding W., I feel the need to reply: "Dream
on."

 If the war is conducted successfully, then Bush will be in a very strong
position politically, since he "stood the course" that he thought was best
despite having lots of opportunities to take the easier path (as his
predecessor certainly would have done). On the other hand, for the pious
hopes expressed by numerous members of this listserv to come true, our
troops will have to encounter an unmitigated disaster on the field of
battle. I hope that is not what you guys are hoping for, even if it would be
to the Left’s political advantage.

 Cheers, Erik

P.S. Jonathon, I cc'd this to you, because I used your name. Keep your chin
up, the Left is losing the debate for the hearts-and-minds of the polity at
large. It only rules in academia and Hollywood now, and nearly so completely
as it did even a half-decade before.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-kb at purdue.edu [mailto:owner-kb at purdue.edu]On Behalf Of Leslie
Bruder
  Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:49 PM
  To: kb at purdue.edu
  Cc: j_glaze at bellsouth.net
  Subject: RE: remove from mailing list


  Apologies to the List and to J. Glazebrook for contributing to what
appears to be a one-sided discussion.  Perhaps Jonathan hasn't been reading
here very long so I would like to take at least one stab at trying to
persuade him to stay if for no other reason than to maintain balance.
  Look at the last two State of the Union speeches; they are chock full of
unquestioning religious rhetoric.  This is not a jab at the right but only
at the issue of Church and State.   Academies and research institutions
don't have any trouble keeping church and state separate while CERTAIN
politicians sound more and more like warring bishops and zealots.

  I suspect (I don't know) that Bush is asking americans and the world not
to look for his arguments but to go to church with him, embrace his "Faith
Based Initiatives" and get pumped up enough about God and His preference of
two of the three Monomaniacisms that there will be as little objection to an
American invasion of the Middle East as possible. What do I base my
suspicions on? The empirical evidence of my senses, which I don't for a
moment believe are infallible. Like anyone I rely on journalists, excellent
authors, your views, the views of those on the other side of the pond to
either verify my generalizations or to correct them when they are revealed
to be baseless or flawed.

  So I thank Jonathan for pointing up the potential dangers of turning
intellectual discussion into propaganda, right or left.  Those individuals
(not whole parties) that we have been talking about haven’t achieved that
disinterestedness which IA Richard’s talks about in chap. 32 "The
Imagination" on page 235 of the Routledge edition of Principles of Literary
Criticism.

  "The equilibrium of opposed principles, which we suspect to be the
ground-plan of the most valuable aesthetic responses, brings into play far
more of our personality than is possible in experiences of a more defined
emotion. We cease to be oriented in one definite direction; more facets of
the mind are exposed and, what is the same thing, more aspects of things are
able to affect us. To respond, not through one narrow channel of interest,
but simultaneously and coherently through many, is to be disinterested in
the only sense of the word which concerns us here. A state of mind which is
not disinterested is one that sees things from only one standpoint or under
one aspect."

  This quote and observations made by Ed Appel in January in a discussion of
David Clark’s outline of the parturition of political distinctions into four
cells or quadrants and further clarified by Paul Turpin (see the diagram he
provided at the time below) nearly enable me to make the positive claim that
an intellectuals, artists, and yes, even politicians can be both
Conservative and Liberal, further, also Radical and Modern Liberal. This is
why I think it is difficult to peg Kenneth Burke as any one of these
categories since he seemed to excel in holding these positions separate and
in readily usable tension. I don’t mean to overly praise the man but simply
desire to go where I believe he had gone, that is, above and below, in and
around the Flatland of a two dimensional political spectrum. True, this was
an advance beyond the single dimensional line with its left and right
orientations; and true also it is a stretch of the analogical extension to
add the z coordinate and make the leap into space and beyond into 4
dimensional date-stamped space-time. I guess this would be one of those
instances of Perspectives by Concussion that open up, while the trauma
lasts, rare and revealing vistas of connections, possibly real, probably
only suggestive.

  So hang in there, contribute.  This is much more than a political or even
a rhetorical forum.

  Sincerely,

  Leslie Bruder



    -----Original Message-----
    From: j_glaze at bellsouth.net [mailto:j_glaze at bellsouth.net]
    Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:12 PM
    To: kb at purdue.edu
    Subject: remove from mailing list


    to whom it may concern,

    i joined this list in the hope of engaging in a modicum of intellectual
conversation, unfortunately that hasn't been the case.  thus far all that i
have received is a bunch of leftist propaganda that i really didn't sign up
to read.  i get enough of this sort of liberal appeasement from my own
professors.  i would greatly appreciate it if my name were removed from the
mailing list.

    cordially,

    jonathon r. glazebrook

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;<SPAN =

style=3D"COLOR: blue; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Leslie:</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'"><?xml:namespace =
prefix =3D o=20
ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: blue; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">I can say from =
experience that=20
the members of this listserv are extremely polite to dissenters. There =
is no=20
need to apologize for expressing the thoughts generated from your =
terminstic=20
screen. As to Jonathon's concern about the discussion being one-sided, =
well,=20
what did he expect from a Kenneth Burke listserv? If memory serves me =
right,=20
Burke thought that Norman O. Brown was a little too far to the right, =
for=20
goodness sake.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: blue; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">As to your recent =
collective=20
observations&nbsp;about the impact of the "protests" and other matters =
regarding=20
W., I feel the need to reply: "Dream=20
on."</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: blue; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">If the war is =
conducted=20
successfully, then Bush will be in a very strong position politically, =
since he=20
"stood the course" that he thought was best despite having lots of =
opportunities=20
to take the easier path (as his predecessor certainly would have done). =
On the=20
other hand, for the pious hopes expressed by numerous members of this =
listserv=20
to come true, our troops will have to encounter an unmitigated disaster =
on the=20
field of battle. I hope that is not what you guys are hoping for, even =
if it=20
would be to the Left&#8217;s political=20
advantage.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: blue; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; =
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Cheers,=20
Erik</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D025560121-17022003>P.S. Jonathon, I cc'd this to you, because I =
used your=20
name. Keep your chin up, the Left is losing the debate for the =
hearts-and-minds=20
of the polity at large. It only rules in academia and Hollywood now, and =
nearly=20
so completely as it did even a half-decade =
before.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-kb at purdue.edu=20
  [mailto:owner-kb at purdue.edu]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Leslie =
Bruder<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Monday, February 17, 2003 1:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
kb at purdue.edu<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  j_glaze at bellsouth.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: remove from mailing=20
  list<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D838523119-17022003><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Apologies to the=20
  List and to J. Glazebrook for contributing to what appears to be a =
one-sided=20
  discussion.&nbsp; Perhaps Jonathan hasn't been reading here very long =
so I=20
  would like to take at least one stab at trying to persuade him to stay =
if for=20
  no other reason than to maintain balance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Look at the last two State of the Union =
speeches;=20
  they are chock full of unquestioning religious rhetoric.<SPAN=20
  class=3D838523119-17022003>&nbsp; This is not a jab at the right but =
only at the=20
  issue of Church and State.&nbsp; </SPAN>&nbsp;Academies and research=20
  institutions don't have any trouble keeping church and state separate=20
  while&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D838523119-17022003>CERTAIN </SPAN>politicians =
sound=20
  more and more like warring bishops and zealots.</FONT><SPAN=20
  class=3D838523119-17022003><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I suspect (I don't know) that =
Bush is asking=20
  americans and the world not to look for his arguments but to go to =
church with=20
  him, embrace his "Faith Based Initiatives" and get pumped up enough =
about God=20
  and His preference of two of the three Monomaniacisms that there will =
be as=20
  little objection to an American invasion of the Middle East as =
possible. What=20
  do I base my suspicions on? The empirical evidence of my senses, which =
I don't=20
  for a moment believe are infallible. Like anyone I rely on =
journalists,=20
  excellent authors, your views, the views of those on the other side of =
the=20
  pond to either verify my generalizations or to correct them when they =
are=20
  revealed to be baseless or flawed.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D838523119-17022003>So I thank=20
  Jonathan for pointing up the potential dangers of turning intellectual =

  discussion into propaganda, right or left.&nbsp; Those individuals =
(not whole=20
  parties) that we have been talking=20
  about&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>haven&#8217;t=20
  achieved that disinterestedness which IA Richard&#8217;s talks about =
in chap. 32=20
  "The Imagination" on page 235 of the Routledge edition of =
<I>Principles of=20
  Literary Criticism. </I></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"The equilibrium of opposed principles, =
which we=20
  suspect to be the ground-plan of the most valuable aesthetic =
responses, brings=20
  into play far more of our personality than is possible in experiences =
of a=20
  more defined emotion. We cease to be oriented in one definite =
direction; more=20
  facets of the mind are exposed and, what is the same thing, more =
aspects of=20
  things are able to affect us. To respond, not through one narrow =
channel of=20
  interest, but simultaneously and coherently through many, is to be=20
  disinterested in the only sense of the word which concerns us here. A =
state of=20
  mind which is not disinterested is one that sees things from only one=20
  standpoint or under one aspect." </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=3D+0><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This quote and =
observations made by=20
  Ed Appel in January in a discussion of David Clark&#8217;s outline of =
the=20
  parturition of political distinctions into four cells or quadrants and =
further=20
  clarified by Paul Turpin&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D838523119-17022003>(see =
the diagram=20
  he provided at the time below) </SPAN>nearly enable me to make the =
positive=20
  claim that an&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D838523119-17022003>intellectuals,=20
  </SPAN>artist<SPAN class=3D838523119-17022003>s, and yes, even=20
  politicians</SPAN>&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D838523119-17022003>can =
be</SPAN>&nbsp;both=20
  Conservative and Liberal, further, also Radical and Modern Liberal. =
This is=20
  why I think it is difficult to peg Kenneth Burke as any one of these=20
  categories since he seemed to excel in holding these positions =
separate and in=20
  readily usable tension. I don&#8217;t mean to overly praise the man =
but simply=20
  desire to go where I believe he had gone, that is, above and below, in =
and=20
  around the Flatland of a two dimensional political spectrum. True, =
this was an=20
  advance beyond the single dimensional line with its left and right=20
  orientations; and true also it is a stretch of the analogical =
extension to add=20
  the z coordinate and make the leap into space and beyond into 4 =
dimensional=20
  date-stamped space-time. I guess this would be one of those instances =
of=20
  Perspectives by Concussion that open up, while the trauma lasts, rare =
and=20
  revealing vistas of connections, possibly real, probably only =
suggestive.=20
  </FONT></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=3D+0><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D838523119-17022003>So=20
  hang in there, contribute.&nbsp; This is much more than a political or =
even a=20
  rhetorical forum.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=3D+0><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D838523119-17022003>Sincerely,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=3D+0><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D838523119-17022003>Leslie=20
  Bruder</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=3D+0><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P></DIV></FONT>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
j_glaze at bellsouth.net=20
    [mailto:j_glaze at bellsouth.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 17, =
2003=20
    1:12 PM<BR><B>To:</B> kb at purdue.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> remove from =
mailing=20
    list<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to whom it may =
concern,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i joined this list in the hope of =
engaging in a=20
    modicum of intellectual conversation, unfortunately that hasn't been =
the=20
    case.&nbsp; thus far all that i have received is a bunch of leftist=20
    propaganda that i really didn't sign up to read.&nbsp; i get enough =
of this=20
    sort of liberal appeasement from my own professors.&nbsp; i would =
greatly=20
    appreciate it if my name were removed from the mailing =
list.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>cordially,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>jonathon r.=20
glazebrook</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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